The cradle of Russians, an obvious Finno-Volgaic genetic hotspot

First look of an accepted manuscript (behind paywall), Genome-wide sequence analyses of ethnic populations across Russia, by Zhernakova et al. Genomics (2019).

Interesting excerpts:

There remain ongoing discussions about the origins of the ethnic Russian population. The ancestors of ethnic Russians were among the Slavic tribes that separated from the early Indo-European Group, which included ancestors of modern Slavic, Germanic and Baltic speakers, who appeared in the northeastern part of Europe ca. 1,500 years ago. Slavs were found in the central part of Eastern Europe, where they came in direct contact with (and likely assimilation of) the populations speaking Uralic (Volga-Finnish and Baltic- Finnish), and also Baltic languages [11–13]. In the following centuries, Slavs interacted with the Iranian-Persian, Turkic and Scandinavian peoples, all of which in succession may have contributed to the current pattern of genome diversity across the different parts of Russia. At the end of the Middle Ages and in the early modern period, there occurred a division of the East Slavic unity into Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians. It was the Russians who drove the colonization movement to the East, although other Slavic, Turkic and Finnish peoples took part in this movement, as the eastward migrations brought them to the Ural Mountains and further into Siberia, the Far East, and Alaska. During that interval, the Russians encountered the Finns, Ugrians, and Samoyeds speakers in the Urals, but also the Turkic, Mongolian and Tungus speakers of Siberia. Finally, in the great expanse between the Altai Mountains on the border with Mongolia, and the Bering Strait, they encountered paleo-Asiatic groups that may be genetically closest to the ancestors of the Native Americans. Today’s complex patchwork of human diversity in Russia has continued to be augmented by modern migrations from the Caucasus, and from Central Asia, as modern economic migrations take shape.

pskov-novgorod-pca-eurasia-yakut
Sample relatedness based on genotype data. Eurasia: Principal Component plot of 574 modern Russian genomes. Colors reflect geographical regions of collection; shapes reflect the sample source. Red circles show the location of Genome Russia samples.

In the current study, we annotated whole genome sequences of individuals currently living on the territory of Russia and identifying themselves as ethnic Russian or as members of a named ethnic minority (Fig. 1). We analyzed genetic variation in three modern populations of Russia (ethnic Russians from Pskov and Novgorod regions and ethnic Yakut from the Sakha Republic), and compared them to the recently released genome sequences collected from 52 indigenous Russian populations. The incidence of function-altering mutations was explored by identifying known variants and novel variants and their allele frequencies relative to variation in adjacent European, East Asian and South Asian populations. Genomic variation was further used to estimate genetic distance and relationships, historic gene flow and barriers to gene flow, the extent of population admixture, historic population contractions, and linkage disequilibrium patterns. Lastly, we present demographic models estimating historic founder events within Russia, and a preliminary HapMap of ethnic Russians from the European part of Russia and Yakuts from eastern Siberia.

pskov-novgorod-pca-finno-permic
Sample relatedness based on genotype data. Western Russia and neighboring countries: Principal Component plot of 574 modern Russian genomes. Colors reflect geographical regions of collection; shapes reflect the sample source. Red circles show the location of Genome Russia samples.

The collection of identified SNPs was used to inspect quantitative distinctions among 264 individuals from across Eurasia (Fig. 1) using Principal Component Analysis (PCA) (Fig. 2). The first and the second eigenvectors of the PCA plot are associated with longitude and latitude, respectively, of the sample locations and accurately separate Eurasian populations according to geographic origin. East European samples cluster near Pskov and Novgorod samples, which fall between northern Russians, Finno-Ugric peoples (Karelian, Finns, Veps etc.), and other Northeastern European peoples (Swedes, Central Russians, Estonian, Latvians, Lithuanians, and Ukrainians) (Fig. 2b). Yakut individuals map into the Siberian sample cluster as expected (Fig. 2a). To obtain an extended view of population relationships, we performed a maximum likelihood-based estimation of ancestry and population structure using ADMIXTURE [46](Fig. 2c). The Novgorod and Pskov populations show similar profiles with their Northeastern European ancestors while the Yakut ethnic group showed mixed ancestry similar to the Buryat and Mongolian groups.

pskov-novgorod-yakut-admixture
Population structure across samples in 178 populations from five major geographic regions (k=5). Samples are pooled across three different studies that covered the territory of Russian Federation (Mallick et al. 2016 [36], Pagani et al. 2016 [37], this study). The optimal k-value was selected by value of cross validation error. Russian samples from all studies (highlighted in bold dark blue) show a slight gradient from Eastern European (Ukrainian, Belorussian, Polish) to North European (Estonian Karelian, Finnish) structures, reflecting population history of northward expansion. Yakut samples from different studies (highlighted in bold red) also show a slight gradient from Mongolian to Siberian people (Evens), as expected from their original admixture and northward expansions. The samples originated from this study are highlighted, and plotted in separated boxes below.

Possible admixture sources of the Genome Russia populations were addressed more formally by calculating F3 statistics, which is an allele frequency-based measure, allowing to test if a target population can be modeled as a mixture of two source populations [48]. Results showed that Yakut individuals are best modeled as an admixture of Evens or Evenks with various European populations (Supplemental Table S4). Pskov and Novgorod showed admixture of European with Siberian or Finno-Ugric populations, with Lithuanian and Latvian populations being the dominant European sources for Pskov samples.

direction-expansion-russians
The heatmaps of gene flow barriers show for each point at the geographical map the interpolated differences in allele frequencies (AF) between the estimated AF at the point with AFs in the vicinity of this point. The direction of the maximal difference in allele frequencies is coded by colors and arrows.

So, Russians expanding in the Middle Ages as acculturated Finno-Volgaic peoples.

Or maybe the true Germano-Slavonic™-speaking area was in north-eastern Europe, until the recent arrival of Finno-Permians with the totally believable Nganasan-Saami horde, whereas Yamna -> Bell Beaker represented Vasconic-Caucasian expanding all over Europe in the Bronze Age. Because steppe ancestry in Fennoscandia and Modern Basques in Iberia.

A really hard choice between equally plausible models.

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Egg
Egg

“Or maybe the true Germano-Slavonic™-speaking area was in north-eastern Europe, until the recent arrival of Finno-Permians with the totally believable Nganasan-Saami horde, whereas Yamna -> Bell Beaker represented Vasconic-Caucasian expanding all over Europe in the Bronze Age. Because steppe ancestry in Fennoscandia and Modern Basques in Iberia.” Come on man, hyperbole and all but this is just a strawman. No one serious arguing for a mostly post-Corded eastern root of Balto-Slavic argues anything like this nonsense or misunderstands why modern northern Russians are more ANE than other northern Slavic speakers. Same with the people who believe Beaker might have included… Read more »

Carlos Quiles

Come on man, hyperbole and all but this is just a strawman. No one serious arguing for a mostly post-Corded eastern root of Balto-Slavic argues anything like this nonsense or misunderstands why modern northern Russians are more ANE than other northern Slavic speakers. I think a strawman would require that A) this was a simple 2-position discussion (say, Kristiansen vs. Heyd), where we both had our basic tenets clear, and B) that the position I criticized were misrepresented. A) Unfortunately, there is no simple position for “R1a/steppe ancestry = Indo-European”, because the only valid tenet I can see is to… Read more »

Egg
Egg

“A single visit to Molgen is enough to see threads where R1b/Vasconic-Caucasian (or even Vasconic-Kartvelian?!) connections are suggested, and have been for a very long time” That’s fair, I’ve seen other people suggest that wild theories come out from that site but I haven’t visited much myself. Though the basic point is that this sort of thing doesn’t seem to represent most of the internet discourse on the issue. “A single visit to Anthrogenica will show you how the main conversation has shifted from a reasonable Steppegenica vs. pet theories in the mid-2010s (viz. OIT, or Anatolian hypothesis, or autochthonous… Read more »

Carlos Quiles

Agreed, these are very good points to focus on in the future. I would probably be more interested in the most likely Italic-Venetic (at least North & Central Italy), Proto-Greek (to the north of Greece), and Indo-Iranian territories (Poltavka, Potapovka, Filatovka), because recently attested branches may be very difficult to connect with ancient populations. Apparently, Celtic may be another branch older than we thought, based on the link of Celtiberian (and Iberian Celts in general) with Urnfield and not with later movements. The Dagger Period may offer a great perspective of what happened in Southern Scandinavia. And we already have… Read more »

Marko
Marko

>I don’t think Modern Basques are that relevant for the discussion on whether NWIE spread with BBC vs. CWC, though, or even for ancient Vasconic speakers, like Modern Finns aren’t the best example of Finno-Ugrians, or Modern Slavs or Balts aren’t the best example for ancient ones. And whether some BBC groups were non-IE-speaking before or after entering Iberia (if any at all) shouldn’t really be essential for the language of East Bell Beakers, I don’t see what the fuss is about except for those interested in creating it, since we’ve had this information on huge genetic replacement with necessary… Read more »

Carlos Quiles

“We now have R1b-M269 overwhelmingly associated with non-IE speakers, while non of the early IE speakers (Hittites/Greeks) have it.” You probably mean overwhelmingly associated with IE speakers, since Germanic, Celtic, Lusitanian, Italic, Ligurian peoples show it or are clearly going to show it. The arrival of East Balts in the Baltic is marked by a western shift in the PCA during the BA, i.e. from regions previously associated with the BBC expansion. Also, Ancient Dorians have R1b. Thracians also have it. So most likely peoples from northern Greece during the Mycenaean period, including some Mycenaeans, will show it. Common Anatolians… Read more »

Egg
Egg

“The arrival of East Balts in the Baltic is marked by a western shift in the PCA during the BA, i.e. from regions previously associated with the BBC expansion” Can you actually expand on this a bit? As far as I can see, the CW Spiginas2 outlier already looks like Baltic_BA and both can be modelled as mainstream Baltic Corded Ware + WHG (or perhaps Narva more appropriately even if stricto sensu WHG seemed to work somewhat better in the Mittnik et al. paper IIRC). Where do you see this Beaker shift? If anything, a greater shift towards the “southwest”… Read more »

Carlos Quiles

I meant the outlier from Turlojiškė (ca. 1230-920 BC), tentatively assigned to Late Trzciniec, hence representing a BA eastward population movement, which has already been mentioned elsewhere (in yet another obvious circular reasoning) as “very Slavic-like”… That’s before further expansions of Baltic cultures to the east: https://indo-european.info/indo-europeans-uralians/index.htm#t=VIII_8_Eastern_EEBA_province-.htm%23viii_8_Balto_Slavs If you assume (as I do) that the Eastern Baltic BA groups continuing the Battle Axe tradition represent Uralic (most likely Finno-Samic), then this is the first sign of the population movements we are most likely going to see to the east during actual Baltic-speaking expansions. This one could represent the first clear… Read more »

Carlos Quiles

I meant the outlier from Turlojiškė (ca. 1230-920 BC), tentatively assigned to Late Trzciniec, hence representing a BA eastward population movement which has already been mentioned elsewhere (in yet another obvious circular reasoning) as “very Slavic-like”, potentially associated with late Trzciniec-related expansions… And that’s before further expansions of Baltic cultures to the east: https://indo-european.info/indo-europeans-uralians/index.htm#t=VIII_8_Eastern_EEBA_province-.htm%23viii_8_Balto_Slavs If you assumed (as I do) that the Eastern Baltic BA groups continuing the Battle Axe tradition represent Uralic speakers (most likely of the Finno-Samic group), then this is the first sign of the population movements we are most likely going to see to the east… Read more »

Egg
Egg

Also it’s worth adding that the subtle BA Latvian-Lithuanian cline might very well be solely due to greater HG admixture further north rather than necessarily diminishing input from the (south)west. Indeed, some of the Latvian samples are even more southern than some of the Lithuanian one even if the trend is as it is and it’s overall quite subtle. Hard to say on these grounds.

Egg
Egg

Is that the Turlojiske1932 woman, then? Not much individual analysis in the Mittnik et al. paper from a quick glance at it again. It’s a bit hard to say whether we aren’t dealing with a more EEF admixed individual, not unlike some of the even more extreme outliers we see in CWC (let alone Beaker), rather than Beaker influence from the west based on this one sample, even if it’s chronologically later and that might make the former scenario less likely. I notice it’s also one of the most low coverage samples in that paper which might affect its position… Read more »

Egg
Egg

Also it’s worth adding that the subtle BA Latvian-Lithuanian cline might very well be solely due to greater HG admixture further north rather than necessarily diminishing input from the (south)west. Indeed, some of the Latvian samples are even more southern than some of the Lithuanian one even if the trend is as it is and it’s overall quite subtle. Hard to say on these grounds.

Carlos Quiles

The sample is Turlojiske1932, I think. I have it listed in my spreadsheet as male but without Y-DNA hg., would need to check if it’s female though. The point is, this sample to the east (in the easternmost boundary of the latest Trzciniec groups) shows a western genetic influence in common with the 1,000-year-older Iwno or Proto-Trzciniec sample in its westernmost border, which puts both in the same context of cultural expansion from west to east. Interpretations of BA and IA movements are as flimsy (or not) as, for example, the coeval Celtic expansion into Iberia and the British Isles… Read more »

Carlos Quiles

The sample is Turlojiske1932, I think. I have it listed in my spreadsheet as male but without Y-DNA hg., would need to check if it’s female though. The point is, this sample to the east (in the easternmost boundary of the latest Trzciniec groups) shows a western genetic influence in common with the 1,000-year-older Iwno or Proto-Trzciniec sample in its westernmost border, which puts both in the same context of cultural expansion from west to east. Interpretations of BA and IA movements are as flimsy (or not) as, for example, the coeval Celtic expansion into Iberia and the British Isles… Read more »

Egg
Egg

“I don’t think Modern Basques are that relevant for the discussion on whether NWIE spread with BBC vs. CWC, though, or even for ancient Vasconic speakers” I don’t think they’re the most important point in the discussion but it’s still something I’d like to see explained perhaps a bit better. It’s always possible any answers in this area will be a bit unclear or unsatisfying of course even in the future. I personally don’t think Beaker spread non-IE languages, or at least _solely_ non-IE languages, but the process is still interesting and I’m looking forward to data from other non-IE… Read more »

Marko
Marko

I believe the Greek was R1b-PH155 if we’re talking about the same study.

I still think there’s a decent chance Z2103 will be overrepresented in the Mycenean shaft graves. Or it might be R1a or J2/G2 like the purported Hittites, difficult to tell. I just think that with the paucity of samples from the relevant graves there isn’t really a solid haplogroup connection yet – almost no data from chiefly Mycenean and Hallstatt burials or West Anatolia.

Carlos Quiles

If you refer to this study https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGKZKoH4yv0&t=15m56s , I think it refers to R1b-P297 based on previous ISOGG standards (2008 to 2011), hence likely a M269 sample, hence also likely Z2103. See e.g. this standard at play here:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2861676/

Based on Modern Greeks, this Dorian sample may show many haplogroups within the R1b tree, from V88 (Balkan Mesolithic) to V1636
(maybe associated with the Suvorovo expansion), but PH155 is not likely at all.

Since it’s apparently within the P297 tree, Z2103 is the most reasonable assumption for the Balkans.

Carlos Quiles

If you refer to this study https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGKZKoH4yv0&t=15m56s , I think it refers to R1b-P297 based on previous ISOGG standards (2008 to 2011), hence likely a M269 sample, hence also likely Z2103. See e.g. this standard at play here:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2861676/

Based on Modern Greeks, this Dorian sample may show many haplogroups within the R1b tree, from V88 (Balkan Mesolithic) to V1636
(maybe associated with the Suvorovo expansion), but PH155 is not likely at all.

Since it’s apparently within the P297 tree, Z2103 is the most reasonable assumption for the Balkans.

Carlos Quiles

If you refer to this study https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGKZKoH4yv0&t=15m56s , I think it refers to R1b-P297 based on previous ISOGG standards (2008 to 2011), hence likely a M269 sample, hence also likely Z2103. See e.g. this standard at play here:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2861676/

Based on Modern Greeks, this Dorian sample may show many haplogroups within the R1b tree, from V88 (Balkan Mesolithic) to V1636
(maybe associated with the Suvorovo expansion), but PH155 is not likely at all.

Since it’s apparently within the P297 tree, Z2103 is the most reasonable assumption for the Balkans.

Marko
Marko

Could be true, but I think a recent Gepid sample also had PH155 so that remains to be seen. The shaft graves are the most important sites for LPIE.

Carlos Quiles

I agree that Myceaneans and Ancient Greeks in general are key for Late PIE, like Anatolians are key to Middle PIE. They show the earliest written IE testimonies. But which Gepid sample? The only one I have is VIM_2, and haven’t seen any SNP call. I can only find this, from the paper: The Sarmatian individual PR_10 and Serbian Gepid VIM_2 also carry the derived SLC24A5 haplotype and are amongst our individuals with the highest amount of DNA matching to East Asia. Which is in line with the most likely region where PH155 split, and where it is going to… Read more »

Carlos Quiles

I agree that Myceaneans and Ancient Greeks in general are key for Late PIE, like Anatolians are key to Middle PIE. They show the earliest written IE testimonies. But which Gepid sample? The only one I have is VIM_2, and haven’t seen any SNP call. I can only find this, from the paper: The Sarmatian individual PR_10 and Serbian Gepid VIM_2 also carry the derived SLC24A5 haplotype and are amongst our individuals with the highest amount of DNA matching to East Asia. Which is in line with the most likely region where PH155 split, and where it is going to… Read more »

Marko
Marko

It’s Vim2 – Vadim Verenich took a look at the sample. Might be from the East Eurasian side, but I believe there’s a Middle Eastern branch as well. To the Mycenean sites I’d also add the early Hallstatt chiefly graves, and maybe Jastorf to see whether they show some kind of differentiation from typically western Y-DNA patterns. What if the Austrian Hallstatt chiefs turned out to be predominantly R1a or G2a, for instance? That would open up the possibility that the ultimate Indo-Europeanization of Iberia, Britain, France etc. might have had a relatively small demographic impact. Germanic groups, too, seem… Read more »

Carlos Quiles

Thank you, I have added that info to my spreadsheet although the sample’s genetic sex is listed as undetermined, so we have to be wary of that, especially under R1b (will appear as R1b-PH155? in the Y-DNA maps). Yep, about Hallstatt I would stress the word predominantly R1a or G2a. However, if they are predominantly G2a it would mean IE are Anatolians? I think you are asking the right question, “What would you need to change your mind?”, but to the wrong guy. Because we have seen many things people didn’t expect about haplogroups, and still the same arguments. I… Read more »

Marko
Marko

Anatolia of course reminds one of the classic farmer model of IE, but I think that if early Anatolian speakers fail to produce a convincing signal of steppe intrusion my favored model would be one wherein West Anatolian and Balkan-Carpathian farmers spread Indo-European languages quite late into the metal ages. This would require fewer assumptions and convoluted language transfers than the CHG hypothesis as it was proposed by Reich I think. That’s a big if however, and West Anatolia is still DNA terra incognita more or less. If one considers only Europe, a CW/BB of course work equally well and… Read more »

Carlos Quiles

It seems VIM_2 had a deformed skull, so that points to it being female. The R1b call is most likely a mistake. It will not appear in the Y-DNA maps.

Rob
Rob

,,

Carlos Quiles

I already explained why the case of Vasconic (north of the Pyrenees) and Proto-Iberian (likely from south-eastern Iberia) are IMO similar to the Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian cases, and I don’t think ancestry has been my main argument, but haplogroups + culture: https://indo-european.eu/2019/03/aquitanians-and-iberians-of-haplogroup-r1b-are-exactly-like-indo-iranians-and-balto-slavs-of-haplogroup-r1a/ However you look at it, since 2015, you need exceptions: either R1b-rich communities were acculturated, or it was R1a-rich communities. Since the predictions of R1a-rich Yamna (me included) changed for “R1-rich” (i.e. R1a-R1b) Yamna, and this has been proven until now wrong, this comeback of the R1a-rich community (i.e. CWC) representing IE seems not very strong to me.… Read more »

Rob
Rob

However your explanation isn’t supported by evidence. The suggestion that Basques are an exception is simply disingenuous in light of the data: the represent a modern relict; but one of several non -IE groups in Western Europe who were archaeologically and DNA linked to L51. There’s no point disputing that like the amateurs on AtlantoGenica are desperately trying to . BB represents a rapid and violent expansion of patriarchal L51 groups. They would be linguistically singular; and their most direct ancestors & most ancient attested languages are non-IE. That *modern* Celts are solidly linked to L51 is due to later… Read more »

Rob
Rob

Another issue might be in assuming that Yamnaya was even PIE; or that *all * groups in the steppe spoke IE. There were several expansions from or near the steppe; thus several potential language families expanding From the steppe, Central Europe & parts of the Balkans

Rob
Rob

,,

Carlos Quiles

Please be careful when using Disqus with a registered account from mobile devices or external apps, because it becomes a mess.

It works better either from a PC, or with unregistered accounts.

Finn Folcwalding
Finn Folcwalding

@Carlos, I”m one of the active Anthrogenica member and I disagree (mostly) with your observations about Anthrogenica especially about the “weird Nordgenica”. First of all I disagree with the supposed 1:1 relationship between genetics, language and culture. That’s an old Romantic heritage that has derailed fully in the twentieth century. Now some follow that paradigm although DNA research makes fully clear that there is no Germanic or Celtic genetic nucleus….. And I’m neither a Nordicist. I have a deep interest in my (genetic) roots without judging or dedain for the roots of other people. But it happens that my roots… Read more »

Carlos Quiles

I have been member for a short time, since 2017, and even though I don’t participate much, I agree it’s the best (most civilized, least tribalist) forum. I didn’t know much about genetic genealogy, but it seemed to me it was a fine place to start, and I still think so. The discussion was mainly steppe vs. OIT back then, so it was acceptable, and information posted there is invaluable to me. Other sites seemed a little off, like a Finnish and a Spanish group I follow (with the expected nativist leaning each); or Molgen with its pro-Russian thing (which… Read more »

Finn Folcwalding
Finn Folcwalding

Thanks for the reply! I don’t want to get into fitties, the whole DNA thing for me is pure out of interest and curiosity. I personally think that Davidski has a strong case at least for the Dutch Beakers in the transformation from SGC to BB (no on has refuted his plots). An evolvement out of it is quite possible, Sandra Beckerman (2015) for example: “In different Corded Ware regions there are differences in the economic base as well as in social organisation and, presumably, ideology. However, in all regions, the importance of being part of the supra-regional exchange network… Read more »

Carlos Quiles

More archeologist have stated that SGC> BB is a real possibility. Yes. The origin and nature of BBC and potential Bell Beaker population movements was unknown, and a popular subject among archaeologists. Dutch believing it came from the Lower Rhine, French believing it came from France, Spaniards believing it came from Spain, Swiss believing it came from Switzerland, Germans believing it came from Southern Germany, or Czechs believing it came from Moravia, some linking it to CWC, some to other West European Chalcolithic cultures, some to Yamna. Until 2017. Then it seemed quite clear that Heyd was right, and the… Read more »

Carlos Quiles

More archeologist have stated that SGC> BB is a real possibility. Yes. The origin and nature of BBC and potential Bell Beaker population movements was unknown, and a popular subject among archaeologists. Dutch believing it came from the Lower Rhine, French believing it came from France, Spaniards believing it came from Spain, Swiss believing it came from Switzerland, Germans believing it came from Southern Germany, or Czechs believing it came from Moravia, some linking it to CWC, some to other West European Chalcolithic cultures, some to Yamna. Until 2017. Then it seemed quite clear that Heyd was right, and the… Read more »

Finn Folcwalding
Finn Folcwalding

@Carlos, I can’t judge the ‘fact and figures’ but I guess that this is not one size fits all BB. In the Dutch case the evolution out of SGC is pretty strong, no signs of incoming people (contrary to the TRB/CW break), and Beckerrman shows an evolvement not because of her nationality but because she studied (as archeologist) the cases in North-Holland. So I see no arguments against in the Dutch case….. So the figures of SGC>BB in genetic sense is no surprise. Archeology and genetics seems to get together in the Dutch case. What would in the Dutch case… Read more »

Carlos Quiles

I pointed out how descriptive archaeologists seem to prefer the “native culture”- and “no incomers”-kind of reasoning. That is repeated everywhere for most cultures, it doesn’t concern only the BBC. Another example, Ukrainian archaeologists consider that the transition of Ukrainian groups to Yamna was not driven by migrations, it was a “common effort” or something. As for SGC>BB not being a surprise, I guess you can find people arguing the same about this kind of CWC>BB findings around the Danube, or in Moravia, or (on the opposite camp) about how it’s no surprise that BBC around the Mediterranean is local… Read more »

Finn Folcwalding
Finn Folcwalding

I recognize that archeologist, partly because of the Kossina type of abuse, are more into pots than into people (and migration). But regarding the Dutch/ NW German Beakers. There are no signs of a sharp break between SGC and BB North Dutch/NW German Beakers. I guess you can recognize that (or not and why not?) you only connect it to the steppe influence in Iberia. Question marks about that doesn’t make the Dutch/NW German case (SGC>BB) obsolete… And with framing I mean labeling. Besides that ‘I reckon it is very easy for any of you to attack my writings.’ Arguing… Read more »

Carlos Quiles

Yeah probably bad choice of words. I mean criticize. Seemed in line with the “choosing the battleground” metaphor.

Carlos Quiles

Yeah probably bad choice of words. I mean criticize. Seemed in line with the “choosing the battleground” metaphor.

Egg
Egg

“The sample is Turlojiske1932, I think. I have it listed in my spreadsheet as male but without Y-DNA hg., would need to check if it’s female though” Looking at the paper, it was assumed to be male based on its remains but its genetic sex is determined as XX so it’s a woman I guess. I had a few more comments about our discussion and the one with Marko but since it’s a bit older at this point and my answer would retread ground we’ve discussed before, I’ll just stick to one point: yeah, that was what I meant that… Read more »

hvaiallverden
hvaiallverden

Finally one whom is on the right track, thanks. Some things first, since you have nailed it with the Finns/Sami, what I find peculiare and also is lacking in this works, is the water ways, the big rivers, the highways of ancient times since time immemorial. There have been found, I maybe wrong on location but its in Karelian an 6000 year old boat, frame build since we call it, spant build, 7000 year old fishing nets, we have 10 000 year old ruins in the North of Norway, etc, etc to rock carwings nobody knows but is estimated to… Read more »

Vinitharya
Vinitharya

Slavs hate it when someone points out that they aren’t the pure lineal descendants of the Indo-European homeland, thinking that the people who remained in the Indo-European homeland became the Slavs. That’s what they’re proud of. I have no problem thinking my male-line ancestor wasn’t speaking an ancestral version of my language, because he wasn’t. The first of my male line to speak my mother tongue was my great-great-great grandfather when he came to Chicago from Germany in 1862. I used to be against you, mostly because I was skeptical Uralic languages were spoken as far west as Corded Ware… Read more »

Carlos Quiles

Yes, the idea of ancestors speaking the same language 5,000 years ago is absurd. In places with historical accounts, that is obviously not the case. There are regions like the Basque Country (viz. the romantic idea of Palaeolithic continuity), or Celtic-speaking areas (viz. Koch with his Celtic from the West), or Scandinavia (with the known romantic ideas of pure Nordic peoples), where many liked to think that in the past, and it has been proven wrong. But even in places where we know IE has been spoken for a long time, with a great degree of continuity, like Greece, there… Read more »

Мартін
Мартін

As a Slav and R1b-Z2013 bearer living in Slovakia am I not “pure lineal descendant of the Indo-Europeans”? BTW back then our king Samo kicked ass to Dagobert Frankish royal army near Wogastisburg.

Carlos Quiles

As a Slav and R1b-Z2013 bearer living in Slovakia am I not “pure lineal descendant of the Indo-Europeans”?

I don’t know. Can you prove that? Were all your paternal ancestors IE speakers? From where exactly were each one of them, and what exactly did they speak?

Carlos Quiles

As a Slav and R1b-Z2013 bearer living in Slovakia am I not “pure lineal descendant of the Indo-Europeans”? I don’t know. Can you prove that? Were all your patrilineal ancestors IE speakers? From where exactly were each one of them, and what exactly did they speak? Your most likely a priori paternal story? A continuous change of cultures and languages (IE and non-IE), happening after a different number of generations each time, until it ended up forming part of Slovaks. Even if your paternal line emerged in Khvalynsk/Repin/Yamna. Would there be a problem if you found out that your paternal… Read more »

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[…] Also remarkable is the lack of comparison of Uralic populations with other neighbouring ones, since the described Uralic-like ancestry of Russians was already known, and due to the recent acculturation of Uralic-speaking peoples right before the expansion of Russians. […]

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[…] Similarly, the term “Dinaric I2a”, based on the densest presence in the Western Balkans, is misleading because it is probably the result of later bottlenecks. Just like the density of different R1a subclades among Modern Slavs is most likely the result of acculturation of different groups, especially to the east and north-east, where language shift is known to have happened in historical times, with the cradle of Russians in particular being a Finno-Volgaic hotspot. […]

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[…] The cradle of Russians, an obvious Finno-Volgaic genetic hotspot […]

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[…] The cradle of Russians, an obvious Finno-Volgaic genetic hotspot […]

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[…] The cradle of Russians, an obvious Finno-Volgaic genetic hotspot […]

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[…] The cradle of Russians, an obvious Finno-Volgaic genetic hotspot […]

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[…] Read more on Balto-Slavic hydrotoponymy, on the cradle of Russians as a Finno-Permic hotspot, and about Pre-Slavic languages in North-West […]

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[…] The cradle of Russians, an obvious Finno-Volgaic genetic hotspot […]

Gundisaluus
Gundisaluus

Has anyone ever thought that Basque might not actually be related to ancient Iberian?
Where’s the evidence that Basque “is” related ancient Iberian? There’s none, only assumptions and speculations with no actual evidence.
I’m starting to believe Basque is related to ancient Yamnayan not ancient Iberian.
How convenient that a pack of men just galloped into Iberia and took up the locals language, absurd.
doesn’t make any sense at all.

Brenter
Brenter

This is honestly weak, you presented way too few evidence for the assertion you made at the end. You say acculturated and yet you present evidence for ample Slavic input into the acculturate population, this is not simply acculturation, is colonization and mixing.

Were the non-White Mexicans simply acculturated natives too?

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[…] The cradle of Russians, an obvious Finno-Volgaic genetic hotspot […]

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[…] The cradle of Russians, an obvious Finno-Volgaic genetic hotspot […]

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[…] The cradle of Russians, an obvious Finno-Volgaic genetic hotspot […]