- This topic has 2 replies, 2 voices, and was last updated 1 week, 2 days ago by Bulk.
November 18, 2020 at 4:35 pm #34215BulkParticipant
Hello,I was wondering if you have any explanation/idea to the dispersal of this subclade because the european side doesnt seem to make much sense to me given its an eastern variant of R1b but the Indian/Uyghur side is pretty interesting too.Any idea about the origins of this R1b variant would be much appreciated because so far I wasnt able to find a single morsel of information about its possible origins.
November 21, 2020 at 11:22 am #34293Carlos QuilesKeymaster
R-14415/14416 is a very interesting subclade, and it is a pity FTDNA does not have information on the Uighur/Indian side, or SNP Tracker would have got the path correctly (more centered on the Pontic-Caspian steppes). Same lack of information – due to the lack of many other samples in other Asian Z2108 and Z2103 branches – affects older path nodes and TMRCA estimations. I think a big correction is expected soon to the SNP age estimations with help of FTDNA R&D team, but I don’t know exactly when; and that won’t solve the geographical problem, unless the nodes are manually pegged based on external information like YFull’s or from ancient DNA.
Anyway, I don’t think that the TMRCA estimates of Z2103 branches (currently ca. 3400 BC) are going to be much older than the formation dates estimated by YFull for Z2103 (ca. 4100 BC), although some branches might get a more reliable starting point for their migration. Based on YTree estimations with Iain McDonald’s method, maybe a little older for all of them.
Its distribution to the east and west of the steppes (starting ca. 3400 BC) appears to reflect the Late Repin (→ Early Yamnaya / Afanasievo) expansion, and the distribution later in Europe with R-Y14512 starting ca. 2600 BC reminds of the Bell Beaker expansion.
In fact, it has been found in ancient DNA (as a basal R-14415*/14416* subclade) in MOK19A and MOK22, from the Mokrin Necropolis, which confirms its spread with West Yamnaya/East Bell Beakers.
Nevertheless, the lack of a proper modern sampling makes it impossible to infer where the R-Y14414 subclade might have come from. It looks like a single late bottleneck event (ca. 1800 BC), possibly from Northern Europe (Germanic peoples??) due to (1) its modern presence in Sweden, Germany, or Scotland and (2) the more frequent BA-IA north→south European expansions; but these regions are clearly over-tested relative to SE Europe.
In short, I’d say this is one of the lineages whose modern distribution shows a paradigmatic Yamanaya-Afanasievo expansion, and in this case it has been now proven for the western part in ancient DNA. Maybe some of those Old Uyghurs from Mongolia published by Jeong et al. (2020) will show the subclade, too, but I think one is already within the R-CTS7763 branch, so that is probably more likely for the rest of them.
- This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by Carlos Quiles. Reason: Some added info
November 22, 2020 at 11:56 am #34305BulkParticipant
Thank you,this was really helpful,I wasnt even aware of the Mokrin necropolis samples,it changes a lot.I’m not on yfull but i belong to R-Y14422 and I’m a Hungarian from Slovakia,just like the other sample with the more downstream R-Y16005.One last thing I’m not sure about because of the dating.Could my line have remained in the region since the bronze age invasion of yamnaya or because its a more downstream mutation,the most basal so far being from Sweden,it probably arrived later from the north with a germanic expansion back to the Carpathian Basin?
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